Imigrants, blah, blah...

[jitz]

After my first paragraph, I wasn't talking about the Commonwealth. Hong Kong was mentioned two paragraphs later when I was comparing London to another sustainable high density population. You said

The Commonwealth agreements still allow people from Australia, Canada etc. to come here, and what's more, every member of a Commonwealth country is allowed to vote in elections here. I don't mind that, not at all.

It's all irrelevant because it doesn't effect employment. No one can just walk into the UK and start working, you need a work visa, even if you're from a Commonwealth country. I don't know about EU countries though. I didn't even touch on the election bit because of how irrelevant it is, but now that you've made me quote you - no, every member of a Commonwealth country can't vote in UK elections. Every member of a Commonwealth country living in the UK can. If you were born before 1984, and are a citizen of any Commonwealth country and are permanantly living in Australia, guess what, you can vote in ours too! Wow, laws left over from when the Commonwealth actually meant something! Moving on.

Simple fact is aswell, that with a higher population comes more employment opportunity, construction, retail, distribution, waste management, the list is endless. It's how a society sustains itself, nothing fortune cookie about it.

Immigration has been highlighted as a core fundamental in building a sustainable future. Some countries and simply better at doing some things better than others. You can't build cars for shit, people immigrate from Europe who can. Americans can't make anything for shit, people immigrate from around the world to make it for them. Importation is ofcourse another facet of that, and that also involves people from other countries stealing jobs - but it's essential otherwise you wouldn't live the way you do with just simple food in your refridgerator, or the couch you sit on that was probably made in China. Immigrations is handy for all sorts of things, so saying you don't need immigrants to sustain you is ridiculous. Without them your country would collapse.

And finally, and this wraps it all up very nicely. After a simple Google, I've come up with some great figures too!

UK unemployment rate - 7.2%

Australian unemployment rate - 5.7%

You carrying on over a percent and a half, AND WE HAVE "CLOSED BORDERS"! Oh woe is us, immigrants have fucked us, our unemployment rate is a percent and a half higher than Australia's. We let everyone in, the entire Commonwealth, the entire European Union, unknown millions of illegal immigrants, we don't have a fucking immmigration policy, our population is too dense, we can't find a job for ourselves!

A percent and a half. Fucking pathetic. Those official figures are from a week ago, in the midst of the economic crisis that you simply aren't coping with because of all the immigrants. Thank you for living up to the stereotypical whinging pom.

[Fozy]

lol guys shut up. No one cares who knows more about it out of you both, the argument is completely pointless, so i think you should both ZIP it.

Go on give me a wee bashing now, it's what the cool kids do.

[RingMaster2001]

I love how you are deciding what is relevant and what isn't.

You talking about the Commonwealth members working here is irrelevant as I didn't even mention that. I was mentioning Commonwealth members can vote here...which they can, and that was after you brought them up.

Moving on...

Simple fact is aswell, that with a higher population comes more employment opportunity, construction, retail, distribution, waste management, the list is endless. It's how a society sustains itself, nothing fortune cookie about it.

But that simply isn't the case here, as I have been trying to put into your ridiculously arrogant brain. Moving on.

And finally, and this wraps it all up very nicely. After a simple Google, I've come up with some great figures too!

UK unemployment rate - 7.2%

Australian unemployment rate - 5.7%

The beauty of that is, it isn't comparable at all.

5.7% Australian unemployment roughly equates to 1140000 out of work. That is quite alot.

7.2% UK enemployment roughly equates to 4320000 out of work. That is a ridiculous amount.

And that 1.5% more roughly equates to another 900000 people out of work.

Thank you for living up to your ignorance and inability to understand statistics.

Immigration is fine and helpful if you can support it. The Australian government have reduced the immigrants because they have found it unsustainable during the economic crisis (as I pointed out before).

We haven't, and infact, because of the economic crisis WORLDWIDE, more people are coming over here.

But no, you won't understand that.

Out of interest, why did your old man emigrate to Australia, Chris?

[System of a Daan]

Actually all over Europe, the right parties have won in the European Elections last month.

In Holland, Geert Wilders and his PVV have won 17% of the votes.

Immigration is a problem in alot of European countries. The Netherlands actually have a higher population density then any other full blown EU country. We have 16,5 million people here, over 3 million of those are immigrants. That

[RingMaster2001]

Isn't Geert Wilders wanted on a variety of charges?

I think he has been banned from entering a wide variety of countries.

Edited June 23, 2009 by RingMaster2001

[Aero]

not that i want to get involved in this arguement, but another factor which willl no doubt benifit ming here more than you chris is that we're clearly letting in as many immigrants as ever even tho its a stone cold cert that unemplyment levels will continue to rise by large amount over the next year(s).

also i'd like to know how recent those figures are chirs purely because unemployment levels at the minute do seem to be snowballing so if its a month or 2 old its probably innaccurate... tho mayb urs is too, i dunno the score with australia like.

[System of a Daan]

Well, I don't think he is wanted for charges, they have been made but never acknowledged or something like that.

He wasn't allowed to enter England and Denmark.

He has to keep in hiding because they think there are serious threats against his life. However, his party is growing fast and I think the cabinet elections in 2 years he could be a major winner, even go on to become Prime Minister. I think I'll emigrate then.

[Nemo]

[jitz]

My dad's family left England because it's a "miserable" place. Why live miserably when you can jump ship and live in one of the nicest places on earth?

Also, you not understanding why things tlike unemployment rates are measured in percentages as a comparable figure with no weight given to the actual number of unemployed shows that you're clearly mentally retarded. You will struggle to get your unemployment rate below 4%. So a rate of 7% in an economic crisis isn't that bad, and is comparable to most countries, like Australia. Actual population numbers are irrelevant, but you can see as population rises the unemployment rate stays the same because jobs are created as the population rises. As I said before, you will always have unemployed, the numbers will never match up exactly so everyone can have a job. You could put a hypothetical extra billion people in the UK and your unemployment rate will still be around 4-8%.

I understand what you're saying aswell, I really do. Without the immigrants you would have millions upon millions less people, and say your unemployment rate hypothetically stayed the same (it probably would be around the 7% mark still), that would be few few less Brits out of work. That's your point, I get that, I'm not being arrogant at all. Now though, take away cheap labour. Housing prices go up. Take away cheap farm hands. Cost of food increases. Throw in skills shortages. Services cease to function. It will have a domino effect all the way down the line. You will pay more for shipping and distribution, you will pay more for petrol, you will pay more to catch a cab down to the pub, your beer will cost more. So the level of bankruptcy rises, the unemployment rate goes up. You won't have enough plumbers, electricians, and other qualified trades. They will be in demand and they will charge you insane prices, because you have to pay that, you don't have a choice. More poverty. You can't take immigration out of the equation, nobody can afford to.

Aero, my figures are as I said, a week old. Yes, the rate has risen a lot in recent months, but that's because construction has stopped around the world. Wait a year, and construction will begin again and those jobs will be back. The rate will plummet. Those jobs aren't gone for good. Then you will have some radical in charge of your country and be regretting every second of it. As I said, by the time tou can implement a solution (like Martin said, apparently Australia has lowered it's immigration), there won't even be a problem anymore and you will need to immigrants.

[Aero]

my bad dude, i didnt read the last wee bit. nah, it does sound like its gonna take a few years for our economy to start to recover so while i hope ur right in a way, i dare say your time scale is perhaps just a bit too small.

[RingMaster2001]

I understand what you're saying aswell, I really do. Without the immigrants you would have millions upon millions less people, and say your unemployment rate hypothetically stayed the same (it probably would be around the 7% mark still), that would be few few less Brits out of work. That's your point, I get that, I'm not being arrogant at all. Now though, take away cheap labour. Housing prices go up. Take away cheap farm hands. Cost of food increases. Throw in skills shortages. Services cease to function. It will have a domino effect all the way down the line. You will pay more for shipping and distribution, you will pay more for petrol, you will pay more to catch a cab down to the pub, your beer will cost more. So the level of bankruptcy rises, the unemployment rate goes up. You won't have enough plumbers, electricians, and other qualified trades. They will be in demand and they will charge you insane prices, because you have to pay that, you don't have a choice. More poverty. You can't take immigration out of the equation, nobody can afford to.

Here is where your peoblm is.

"Take away cheap labour. Housing prices go up."

Housing prices have rocketed with immigrants pouring in.

My parents bought a house in 1997 for

Edited June 24, 2009 by RingMaster2001

[Fozy]

Please just shut up? No one cares, I doubt very much either of you care. I'm sure all of us could go on google/wikipedia and argue to no end too, good one guys. You've impressed us all.

Clap, clap.

[RingMaster2001]

Iain; we've ignored you twice, you'd think you'd get the picture. This topic is now almost completely devoted to this now. If you don't like, don't post, and don't get the urge to click the topic. Simple as that.

Now run along.

Edited June 24, 2009 by RingMaster2001

[Fozy]

Why are you even arguing? All you're doing is proving who can research the internet quicker and more efficiently. I just don't see why you're arguing for no reason.

[RingMaster2001]

Only the figures I've used have been researched, everything else hasn't, and I guess it's the same with Chris.

Once again Iain, you don't have to come in here.

[Fozy]

Alright, have fun you little buggers.

[jitz]

I wikipedia'ed the population densities and googled the unemployment figures. Other than that, it's all my opinion, and I made that clear from the start. I'm not saying I'm an expert on immigration, far from it, and it's a really touchy subject with a lot of people and it will be a subject debated till the day the human race becomes extinct. We talk about immigration on a country level, in the future they will be debating immigration on a planetary level. Fact is, it will still be there. You can't stop it, and you wouldn't want to stop it because the consequences would be huge.

I'll quote my entire post that sparked this all....

God, that is all your entire fucking island goes on about, immigrants. Get voer it, they are there, and they are there to stay. Everyone knows in every country in the world that has immigrants (of which yours is not the first, keep in mind the British Empire took over half the fucking world, I'm sure all those other countries were over the moon when you guys invaded), the immigrants take the shit jobs no one else wants. If you are losing legitimate jobs to an immigrant, it's because you're dumber than he is. Rather than bitching and moaning about it on SKY News, go back to school.

Or, just steal their PS3s.

I still stand by it. Martin I listened to you, and yes I understood where you were coming from, but I still think my point stands. A lot of the anger your country is pointing at immigrants is misplaced. As for your country maybe lowering the amount of immigrant take in for the time being, yes maybe that is a step that could help your current situation, I don't know, if I did I would be running a country. The anger being directed at the immigrants already in your country though, and even the ones that still come in, should not be the butt of your anger - which is the case right now. You will always let immigrants in, as all countries will, because it's necessary for the economy. If you can't find a job, stop blaming immigrants, get some qualifications behind you that matter, and that will guarantee you a job. At the end of the day, you can have an unemployment rate of 15% and there will still be certain trades and skills in demand with positions that need to be filled. Using immigrants as an excuse for your unemployment is a cop out.

[RingMaster2001]

You just copped out by ignoring my rebuttal for everything you said in a previous post.

Don't get me started on the Qualification line, as someone who runs their own business, you don't need a qualification for many things, it's just a bureaucratic system.

As for your country maybe lowering the amount of immigrant take in for the time being, yes maybe that is a step that could help your current situation

Thank you.

[jitz]

I never read it because I didn't see it.

What you said could be said for the entire world, it's not just a UK thing. Food prices have increased, housing prices have increased, petrol has increased; yes, all with immigration. You think it's bad now, take immigration away and it'll get a shitload worse. I don't see your point.

The price of petrol between the two countries is really irrelevant and another issue all together. Off the top of my head I would say that those figures are wrong, I paid $1.30 the other day, which doesn't translate to just US 89c. You could start comparing costs of living across the board and it could level out, or it could not, I don't know. You can compare wages, I don't know how they comapre. It really doesn't matter though as no two countries will ever be exactly equal. Some countries will be cheaper to live in than others. You'd find that they get paid less though. I don't see the whole point though, it's like you're trying to say the costs of living in the UK are too high. Are you trying to blame the immigrants for that aswell?

As for the your opinion on the relevance of qualifications, it's yet another issue entirely and has no relevance here. That's the way the system is worldwide. Some jobs you will need a piece of paper that says you can do that job. You may think experience overrides that, and in a lot of cases it will. If you're finding it hard getting an opportunity to get experience though, get a better qualification.

So where's the rebuttal? You've just attempted to start another two arguements that I don't really care about.

[Aero]

guitar hero greatest hits

Rock Band 2

Guitar Hero World Tour

Guitar Hero Metallica

Rock Band

.... did you lose ur xbox controller chris, making these games the only 1s you could play? lol 4 good games and a demo tho, not dissing.

[RingMaster2001]

Chris, all you are doing is deciding what is relevant and isn't.

Now you are saying it will get worse without immigrants, after I just said it's fucking terrible with immigrants coming in. You are not making any sense. You said petrol prices would soar, you said food prices would soar, and house prices would soar if we didn't have immigrants. I prove that they are soaring anyway, and somehow that is irrelevant. You're an idiot.

You telling people to get better qualifications is irrelevant when people want jobs. I made a BRIEF opinion about qualifications and guess what, you are deciding what is relevant and what isn't.

You're an idiot. There is no point having an argument with you if every legitimate reason I give is just being palmed off as being "irrelevant".

Are you trying to blame the immigrants for that aswell?

When did I say that? You really are something else.

Return to this argument when you have something intelligent to say with something to back up your argument (although, I doubt you will, as you have proven you know fuck all about this subject, not to mention the fact that you're wrong), until then, just fuck off.

Edited June 24, 2009 by RingMaster2001

[Aero]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah,

We come from the land of the ice and snow,

>from the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.

The hammer of the gods

Will drive our ships to new lands,

To fight the horde, singing and crying:

Valhalla, I am coming!

On we sweep with threshing oar,

Our only goal will be the western shore.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah,

We come from the land of the ice and snow,

>from the midnight sun where the hot springs blow.

How soft your fields so green,

Can whisper tales of gore,

Of how we calmed the tides of war.

We are your overlords.

On we sweep with threshing oar,

Our only goal will be the western shore.

So now youd better stop and rebuild all your ruins,

For peace and trust can win the day

Despite of all your losing.

[jitz]

I made a graph in MS Paint that even a three year old can understand to demonstrate my point to you, because clearly your head is so far up your own arse that you aren't understand things clearly.

I am not disputing the existence of the blue line, yes prices have increased and will always increase due to many different factors like inflation. I didn't feel the need to explain basic finance concepts such as inflation because I thought that I shouldn't patronise you. Apparently I was wrong, and sent you a pop up book that runs you through the concepts of money supply and demand, that affects prices across the world. A really good example of inflation is Zimbabwe, where early in the year they introduced the hundred trillion dollars banknote. That's because their inflation was out of control. On an idea closer to home, a 50 pound bank note would have been unfathomable at the start of the last century. Now it's common place. You'll also find that the production of notes increases most years, ahhh inflation.

Your point is irrelevant beacuse inflation is irrelevant to immigration. For your point to mean anything, you have to dispute the existence of the orange line. I've pinpointed it's location on the graph at the exact point in time where my hypothetical expelling of all immigrants occurs. Where, above normal inflation, prices increase higher. It's a hard thought to comprehend, the graph however displays in in easy to understand standard definition glory. If you're still struggling with the concept, I can whip up a 1080p HD version.

You telling people to get better qualifications is irrelevant when people want jobs

I want to be a doctor, oh wait I don't have a piece of paper that says I'm a doctor, I can't be one. I want to be an engineer, oh wait, I don't have a peice of paper that says I can be an engineer, I can't be one. I want to be a psychologist, oh wait I don't have a piece of paper that says I can be one, I can't be one. I want to operate an excavator on a construction site so I can get off the shovel, oh wait, I don't have a piece of paper that says I can operate one, they won't let me. I want wash the windows of high rise buildings, oh wait, I don't a a piece of paper that says I can work at heights, I can't. You need a piece of paper to do most jobs these days, it's a fact of life. If you don't have a piece of paper, you will be competing with thousands upon thousands of people for jobs that don't require a piece of paper, and you will find life a lot harder getting a job. I'm a linesman, I have a piece of paper that says I can be a linesman. I can work anywhere in the world as a linesman with my piece of paper. I can walk into Los Angeles, which has an unemployment rate (according to wikipedia) of over 10%, and get a job as a linesman tomorrow. I could probably walk into London, which has a similar unemplyment rate, and be a linesman tomorrow, stepping infront of everyone else that doesn't have a piece of paper that says they can be one. Am I now one of those filthy immigrants stealing a job? No, there are positions to be filled that require qualified personel, if nobody has that qualification, then the job will simply go unfilled till somebody does. There are skills shortages in every country. Pick a job in one of the in-demand areas and get the piece of paper that says you can do the job, and you will get the job.

As for Aero, there's no demo, I have Greatest Hits. Our release date was Wednesday, and I was in EB on Tuesday to buy a Wii sensor bar and they had already put it on shelves. So I snapped it up. Rock Band is only on the list because my import copy of Rock Band 2 came and I had to load up Rock Band to copy the songs across. I'm actually underwhelmed by RB2, whereas GH Metallica and GH Greatest Hits are awesome. The note tracks are so much better in Guitar Hero games now. So yeah, I'm loving the rhythm games, and both my controllers are a little broken. One has a screwed X button, and a non working battery pack; the other won't charge a battery pack. Between the two I have one functional controller, that to charge you have to put the battery pack in the fucked controller.

[RingMaster2001]

Jitz, you drawing a graph proves fuck all. You have proven fuck all by drawing it, you have proven fuck all by saying it. You are not making any ground by saying it, and all you are doing is not supporting your effort.

Inflation? What the fuck has inflation got to do with this? Immigration has no effect on inflation. You're an idiot. It's what I like to call IRRELEVANT.

I'll dispute the existence of this orange line, because there is no evidence that this will happen. We have let in millions of immigrants only to have all amenities soar in prices. You have no come back to that. What do you suggest, bring in more immigrants, when it's obvious that that hasn't solved the fucking problem. You're an idiot.

Just when you thought you couldn't be any more stupid, you then say this....

I want to be a doctor, oh wait I don't have a piece of paper that says I'm a doctor, I can't be one. I want to be an engineer, oh wait, I don't have a peice of paper that says I can be an engineer, I can't be one. I want to be a psychologist, oh wait I don't have a piece of paper that says I can be one, I can't be one. I want to operate an excavator on a construction site so I can get off the shovel, oh wait, I don't have a piece of paper that says I can operate one, they won't let me. I want wash the windows of high rise buildings, oh wait, I don't a a piece of paper that says I can work at heights, I can't. You need a piece of paper to do most jobs these days, it's a fact of life. If you don't have a piece of paper, you will be competing with thousands upon thousands of people for jobs that don't require a piece of paper, and you will find life a lot harder getting a job. I'm a linesman, I have a piece of paper that says I can be a linesman. I can work anywhere in the world as a linesman with my piece of paper. I can walk into Los Angeles, which has an unemployment rate (according to wikipedia) of over 10%, and get a job as a linesman tomorrow. I could probably walk into London, which has a similar unemplyment rate, and be a linesman tomorrow, stepping infront of everyone else that doesn't have a piece of paper that says they can be one. Am I now one of those filthy immigrants stealing a job? No, there are positions to be filled that require qualified personel, if nobody has that qualification, then the job will simply go unfilled till somebody does. There are skills shortages in every country. Pick a job in one of the in-demand areas and get the piece of paper that says you can do the job, and you will get the job.

Everyone in the world wants to be a doctor? Everyone wants to be an engineer? Are you really that fucking stupid?

People want jobs at the moment. At the moment there are qualifications in farming, in citizenship (wtf indeed) and other shit. That is what is wrong. That is the problem with this endless line of qualifications.

The fact that you need a piece of paper to do almost any job as you put it, doesn't make it right, it makes it fucking stupid. Why don't you try and read what I said?

Chris, you're a retard.

-20 Bizangs for being one of the biggest fuckwits on this board.

[jitz]

Thank you for agreeing with me on that inflation is irrelevant and has nothing to do with immigration. I thought I might have to really test my MS Paint skills there with all types of pie graphs, bar graphs and god forbid, a 3d bar graph. The standard increase in prices across the board is irrelevant, inlfation being apart of that, the blue line factors in zero in what we're talking about. The graph worked!

Would the orange line exist though? You think not, I think it would for the reason I already posted. I have no proof to say it would because it hasn't happened. I can't even think what numbers I'd throw out to support it, it's a big call, I can't even begin to think of imaginary 15% of mystery numbers. It was based purely on opinion, hence why it's not accompanied by any numbers, no percentages, no graphs (I only made it afterwards to show the irrelevance of the blue line in my statement). I simply said that if you got rid of all the immigrants tomorrow, prices would escalate. You said they already are and already had (the blue line), and I drew a graph to demonstrate how they'd increase higher than they already are. You disagreed. That's fine. I don't have any numbers, you don't have any numbers (beyond the blue line, which we have already agreed on being irrelevant). I feel we're finally nearing the end here Martin.

I have also already said that I didn't want to get into an arguement on qualifications and their worth because it's ridiculous. Suffice to say they're there, and they are irrelevant to the comment I made about immigrants....like I said. Yes there's a lot of qualifications out there that are completely pointless, but that's the day and age we live in and we all have to deal with it because it's certainly not going to change. Infact, you'll find more and more qualifications are needed in the future. So if you're finding it hard getting a job people, don't be like Martin and argue with the government over the worth of the system, you won't change it. Just get the qualification, get them job and live happily ever after. If the job you have your eye on looks favourably on a diploma in citizenship, don't argue on smacktalks about how pointless it is, just get it and you're one step closer to employment.

Like Martin said aswell, not everyone wants to be a doctor or an engineer. Hell I don't want to be one either, it's far too much pressure for me. If you want to work on most building sites though, most places these days require you to have all sorts of first aid, OH&S type qualifications. The immigrants won't have them, so if you do, you're one step closer already! Even being a garbage man would require you to have a truck license. Aha! The immigrants won't have one of those! Score. I have a truck license, EWP license, working at heights, electricians license, dogging and rigging qualifications, first aid, OH&S, Cert IV in Frontline Management, high voltage switching, crane operator license, bobcat license, confined space permit, forklift license....I think that's it. What can an immigrant do? Bake a loaf of bread? So yes, qualifications are required for most jobs, just get them and get paid!

I think that covers everything. So no, maybe incrwasing your intake of immigrants isn't a good idea, I never claimed it was. Maybe decreasing the intake of immigrants for the time being is a good idea, never said it wasn't. Immigrants altogether though aren't to be feared and loathed because they're like the X-Men. They're not mutants, they're just people trying to make it in the world like you. So show some of the football competitive spirit and get amongst them and kick their arses in finding a job. We all know, it's the more skilful, more well drilled, disciplined football team that wins at the end of the game. Ofcourse they're there for the more-than-occasional racial joke though, and they'll probably take those on the chin with a smile, they're in your country after all.