Imigrants, blah, blah...

[Aero]

if they wouldnt take our jobs mayb we could afford PS3s

[jitz]

God, that is all your entire fucking island goes on about, immigrants. Get voer it, they are there, and they are there to stay. Everyone knows in every country in the world that has immigrants (of which yours is not the first, keep in mind the British Empire took over half the fucking world, I'm sure all those other countries were over the moon when you guys invaded), the immigrants take the shit jobs no one else wants. If you are losing legitimate jobs to an immigrant, it's because you're dumber than he is. Rather than bitching and moaning about it on SKY News, go back to school.

Or, just steal their PS3s.

[RingMaster2001]

God, that is all your entire fucking island goes on about, immigrants. Get voer it, they are there, and they are there to stay. Everyone knows in every country in the world that has immigrants (of which yours is not the first, keep in mind the British Empire took over half the fucking world, I'm sure all those other countries were over the moon when you guys invaded), the immigrants take the shit jobs no one else wants. If you are losing legitimate jobs to an immigrant, it's because you're dumber than he is. Rather than bitching and moaning about it on SKY News, go back to school.

Or, just steal their PS3s.

Jitz, it is obvious British Social history is hardly your strong point so don't even try and start it.

It's laughable coming from a man who lives in a country which has practically closed it's borders to nearly every type of immigrant.

[jitz]

Uh huh, because Kenyans, Lebonese, Chinese, Greeks, Philipinos, Italians, Indians and many more are all indigenous to Australia.

Also the federal government saying that Australia had to allow a lot more immigrant familes in to combat the aging population crisis that would become financially unsustainable in 15 years, is also another example of our closed borders. We are probably the most racist country in the world; but I don't want to open a bakery or a fish and chip shop. So my job is safe.

The only reason I can think of to why you would think our borders are closed would be because we rejected you, but you have to understand we have a strong no fuckwits policy.

[RingMaster2001]

Do you not have an immigration policy?

Do you not prevent people from immigrating there unless they have a trade?

Do you not prevent people from entering the country if they have a criminal record?

And also, are you not reducing immigration for 2008/9 by 15%?

Yes you do/are. We don't/aren't.

If you are going to make a statement Jitz, learn what you are fucking talking about.

Edited June 18, 2009 by RingMaster2001

[Aero]

the immigrants take the shit jobs no one else wants. If you are losing legitimate jobs to an immigrant, it's because you're dumber than he is.

you know little about how shit northern ireland is do you? we are hardly the forefront in anything really, as such most jobs are shit, these cunts come over to our timy country, get a job, next month a factory closes cos its cheaper to move out to the middle east or whatever, we get a few hundred of our own ppl sitting for 8 months and counting without being able to find a job at all, any shit job, just a job to pay the bills, people at times are greatful for these shit jobs so dont pull the old "but nobody else wants to do it" shit.

our country is cock, its not the same as yours, we design a car which can time travel and still go bust, we make a boat that was "virtually unsinkable" (you know, if you're not a tard who crashes into everything) and what happens? some tard crashes it, kills a bunch of ppl, ppl make millions off it retelling the story but it results in H&W closing down and our ship yards getting turned into a sub par arena which pulls in very few good bands etc and a shitty ice hockey team.

[RingMaster2001]

Well done Paul for making this into a seperate topic so we can all enjoy Chris' ineptitude . Top man.

[Fozy]

wahhh wahhhh

[jitz]

Martin, most people have a trade, and don't have a criminal record.

Also, think about what you're saying. We check to see if they CAN GET A JOB before we let them in. We need to be certain that they are employable and can take a job away from an Australian before they can step foot in the country. If you're going to sit at home and be a welfare bum, we don't want you.

There are rules in place, but the borders are far from closed. If you are lessening the amount of immigrants, than it's because we've taken in enough to sustain a future economy. It takes a lot of immigrants to alter an economy.

Aero, you're talking to a man whose country was founded by British convicts, I think your point is moot. Your country is what you make it, and obviously you guys need a little more pride in yours.

[RingMaster2001]

The reason that you are capping the immigrants by 15% is due to the worsening economic crisis, not due to the fact that you are now sustainable in the future. That's another tick in the boxes of what Chris doesn't know about.

And you've just admitted you have more provisions preventing immigrants than we do.

So, in short, until you understand, keep quiet.

[Aero]

Aero, you're talking to a man whose country was founded by British convicts, I think your point is moot. Your country is what you make it, and obviously you guys need a little more pride in yours.

aye, its badly run, the uk clearly doesnt want us and our own government fight for shit reasons like bands marching down streets, they invest money in cack, ignore more important things which would let our country develope and they get away with it because most voting over here in elections isnt about who has the best policies, no, its about "keepin those catholic/protestant bastards out" so a prod will just vote for say DUP cos its got a union jack in their party logo, even if they say "we're gonna spend aaaaaaallllllllllllll our time and resources on making people wear nicer shoes"

its bollocks, mean while, all these foreigners sneak in and they dont notice. its hard to take pride in a country that wont try to save its self and even harder when the likes of gordon brown think that visiting us once a year makes all the difference, rather than trying to help 1 of thier own countries.

plus, wed have jonny, i mean, we're always gonna be fucked with him floatin around belfast

[jitz]

The reason that you are capping the immigrants by 15% is due to the worsening economic crisis, not due to the fact that you are now sustainable in the future. That's another tick in the boxes of what Chris doesn't know about.

And you've just admitted you have more provisions preventing immigrants than we do.

So, in short, until you understand, keep quiet.

No I don't keep up with immigration policies, and I'm 100% fine with that. I don't know why you're celebrating me admitting to having tighter immigration policies than your country, because I never said we didn't, I only ever disputed that my countries borders were closed, which you then admitted they weren't. If you want me to say we hvae more immigration policies than you, I will say, I don't know. I don't know your immigration policies, and I don't really care to look it up. I will take your word for it.

All I was saying is that whinging, moaning and complaining about it, is really not the answer. In a lot of cases, like Australia's, we let more immigrants in to help a future economy. We've also let in a lot of refugees from countries torn apart by civil war, because we're just nice people and we have the space to accomodate them. I'm certain all your immigrants aren't being let in by your government for shits and giggles. It will be for a reason. Sitting there and complaining they're stealing jobs is an arguement that takes place in every country and is a debate that has been waged since the invention of the boat. Fact is, I'm certain if you have decent enough qualifications and have a good personality, you will find a job. Complaining that they're stealing all the good McDonald's jobs isn't really a good excuse for being unemployed. I know fuck all about Northern Ireland. I assume they are north of Ireland, and that's pretty much the extent of my non-knowledge. I still don't think complaining about immigrants is the solution to your job seeking. It just seems like a cop out.

Martin I don't know why you have this idea of me constantly wanting to argue with people, and wanting to be an expert on everything. It's like everyone is out to "trap" me into something I know nothing about. Then post a celebratory "You just admitted..." post, when really I was just making a broad statement worldwide about immigration, and how it's not necessarily something to be feared. I don't know what percentage of immigrants you take in, and I don't know why you know the percentage of immigration Australia takes in, wikipedia maybe. It's really not a great stat, as what exactly is the percentage of? 15% of a million is a bit, 15% of a hundred is fifteen people. Maybe I should start throwing around arbitrary percentages. My point still stands at the end of the day, if you don't like your situation, improve it, don't complain about it. Either become a politician and put immigration at the top of your policies, or support a politician already doing that. Or spend the time your taking complaining about it, and get better qualifications to secure a better job that really isn't open to immigrants.

I appreciate Aero, not trying to win a non-existant arguement with me, and rather sensibly explaining his country and the way he feels about it. Rather than trying to trap me into a "you know fuck all about my coutry on the other side of the world to you". The social issues no matter where about on the map you live are exactly the same. We have worse off areas full of poverty, the entire Aboriginal race is labelled drunken bums who are better off dead. Still though I've met some pretty cool Aboriginals, but honestly, I've met more drunken bums better off dead. They for the most part have no pride, maybe that's because the European settlers took it away from them, I don't know. Still though, some have dreams and aspirations and make it in the real world and become rather successful.

So, in short, until you understand, keep quiet.

If I don't fully understand something, that I haven't claimed to fully understand, why not try to explain it rather then telling me to be quiet?

[phil]

Jesus, that post is a huge bitch.

[RingMaster2001]

Chris is one of the few people of this board (whom he has probably labelled in the past as a "loser) who can write essays in posts.

I haven't read your post in it's entirety Chris, and I don't really intend to, however, I'll reply to what I could be bothered to read, and what I think you probably said.

This is the first thing you said...

God, that is all your entire fucking island goes on about, immigrants. Get voer it, they are there, and they are there to stay.

You are saying that you don't want to constantly argue, but you decided to poke your whore into a conversation (a light hearted one at that) between me and Dave. If you don't think that that is inciting an argument, then I suggest you have a deeper problem with understanding than there was to begin with.

It's like everyone is out to "trap" me into something I know nothing about.

Firstly, that is paranoia. Secondly, you admitted in that long winded post that you don't know anything about immigration policy (coincidentally, coming after you asserted wrong reasons for your argument), and considering you started this argument, as you can identify from the beginning of this post, the maker of this "trap" was you, which you then graciously fell into.

My point still stands at the end of the day, if you don't like your situation, improve it, don't complain about it.

Says the man who has written reviews complaining about wrestling shows, from the man who has complained about Iain not knowing who Jerry Jarrett is, and that is just from the top of my head. That is hypocritical.

About the 15%, your country has reduced the amount of immigrants taken in, from what, I don't know, I don't live in Australia, I just read/watch the news that tells me the basic facts. As someone who wasn't born in a garden shed, I can work out though that this is 15% of the amount of immigrants you are allowing in. The amount you are letting in might be 100 people (which is 15 as you say, but also further backs my point that you have "all but closed your borders") or it might be a million (which as you say is alot of people). It doesn't take rocket science does it dearest?

If I don't fully understand something, that I haven't claimed to fully understand, why not try to explain it rather then telling me to be quiet?

May I refer you to my second post in this topic...

Do you not have an immigration policy?

Do you not prevent people from immigrating there unless they have a trade?

Do you not prevent people from entering the country if they have a criminal record?

And also, are you not reducing immigration for 2008/9 by 15%?

Yes you do/are. We don't/aren't.

Thank you.

[jitz]

Nice twisting Martin, but no dice. You still focus on trying to point out supposed fuck ups on my part, instead of just getting your own information across. So stop scouring every millimeter of my sentences looking for a slight inconsistency. I also like how you claim to have not read that long post in it's entirety, but can then quote posts that I made over a week ago.

-Yes I did put myself in the conversation about immigration because of a comment from Dave, there was no arguement though and Dave didn't find one either. It was simply a statement, not based on numbers, but on a lot of British and Australian media coverage on your immigrants. Instead of saying how it's actually fucked your country, you simply claimed Australia has shut it's broders, which is still incorrect. 15% of mystery number. You read the post, and then went searching

-The trap comment came about from a few weeks go when someone else tried to trap me in an arguement, I made the comment then. It's simpllya follow up from that, no paranoia here thanks, but I appreciate the concern about my mental health. I never made an arguement, I just made a society based comment that wasn't based on numbers. When you brought up Australia's immigration policy, I just explained why it's like that. Then you said they were lowering the number by 15% of mystery number, and I said why they might be doing that, even starting my sentence with an 'if'. I had no idea if we were or weren't.

- I explained who Jerry Jarrett was and his relation to TNA in the same post as i made fun of Iain in. So no, I didn't just complain about the situation, I improved it by telling everyone who the person was.

- Your way of explaining your situation is posting random facets of Australia's immigration policy that are completely irrelevant to immigrants in your country.

I'm amazed you're still even treating this as a typical SmackTalks arguement. Stop quoting my posts and pointing out mistakes that aren't there, I just want your fucking opinion on your immigration policy. What it is. What makes it so different from everyone else's. Because after so many posts, it's the one thing you haven't fucking mentioned and it's your entire point, and that's all I'm interested in.

[RingMaster2001]

I'm sorry Chris, you are so far up your own arse that you are making spelling mistakes all over the place.

-Yes I did put myself in the conversation about immigration because of a comment from Dave, there was no arguement though and Dave didn't find one either. It was simply a statement, not based on numbers, but on a lot of British and Australian media coverage on your immigrants. Instead of saying how it's actually fucked your country, you simply claimed Australia has shut it's broders, which is still incorrect. 15% of mystery number. You read the post, and then went searching

So you admit to getting involved in a conversation between me and Dave, you have a go at us for complaining (when you are one of the biggest whingers and whiners on this board), then you admit (albeit in a previous post) that you know nothing about the subject, now you are saying you want an explanation on how it has "fucked up our country". Instead of asking that simple question, you went on a dilly dally rant telling us not to complain, without even asking the question that you are now seemingly desperate to have answered.

To quote you on this;

Nice twisting; but no dice.

The trap comment came about from a few weeks go when someone else tried to trap me in an arguement, I made the comment then. It's simpllya follow up from that, no paranoia here thanks, but I appreciate the concern about my mental health. I never made an arguement, I just made a society based comment that wasn't based on numbers. When you brought up Australia's immigration policy, I just explained why it's like that. Then you said they were lowering the number by 15% of mystery number, and I said why they might be doing that, even starting my sentence with an 'if'. I had no idea if we were or weren't.

Noone is trying to trap you in an argument here Chris, as I mentioned before, you started it, how on earth that is meant to be a trap I don't know, but thanks for ignoring that and trying to force your opinion on the situation, as per usual.

Next, I made a mistake Chris. It was about the 15%. It was actually 14%, my apologies, completely my fault, and if you want to read more (and can actually be bothered to read without writing your reply beforehand), here it is;

http://www.minister.immi.gov.au/media/medi...009/ce09030.htm

Interesting.

I explained who Jerry Jarrett was and his relation to TNA in the same post as i made fun of Iain in. So no, I didn't just complain about the situation, I improved it by telling everyone who the person was.

Aw. How nice of you, improving topics. I feel I've improved this one by making it obvious how much of a prat you are.

-10 Bizangs to Chris for being an idiot.

I just want your fucking opinion on your immigration policy. What it is. What makes it so different from everyone else's. Because after so many posts, it's the one thing you haven't fucking mentioned and it's your entire point, and that's all I'm interested in.

No you don't. You firstly wanted us to stop complaining. You didn't ask for our immigration policy at all. So that's bollocks. Also, that wasn't my entire point. My entire point is that you know fuck all about our countries immigration policy (which by your questioning, is correct, let alone I seem to know more about your own one than you do), so that's bollocks again. And if we are talking about the original point of this conversation; you weren't even involved in it, so that's bollocks again.

[Aero]

i've sat back and readeded all this, my name being mentioned a few times etc, i then looked back at the start, seeing how the arguement formed etc and its pretty fucking clear neither of you's know what ur on about, seriously, how does anything you say even REMOTELY result in me getting a PS3? honestly...

haha sorry guys, had to be done... continue ur rivalry as if i wasnt here

[jitz]

I made a comment on your immigration, if I was wrong (which may very well be the case), then tell me how I'm wrong by explaining why your immigration system is fucked. I still don't understand why you keep dodging it. And no, I won't read the page about the 15% or the 14%, I don't care. You brought it up, and it's still completely irrelevant.

[RingMaster2001]

We don't have a policy.

The European Union prevents any restriction on immigrations within the EU's boundaries. This means that any new country granted EU membership can have it's citizens migrate en masse to whichever country they choose. And the vast majority choose here, because they don't have to pay for health care, and as they are non-British aren't liable to our taxes (this has happened with every expansion of the EU; Romania, Poland, Bulgaria and soon to be Turkey).

We also take in a large amount of immigrants from the rest of the world, with thousands entering illegally every week. The government said that there could be up to 1 million illegal immigrants in the UK. This was contested by several experts who questioned the government figures, forcing the government to later come out and say that the figure is much more than that, and that they don't know just how many there are in this country.

The government have also passed laws granting positive discrimination in favour of immigrants, meaning that in the police force/civil service/NHS etc. people from ethnic minorities are given jobs and positions over British people in this country.

This has led to the riots that have happened in Northern Ireland recently, and votes soaring for the BNP (the far right scumlike Neo-Nazi party in this country) to the point that they are actually winning seats in councils and in European elections.

The reason we are part of the EU is because we had a referendum on the issue in the early 70s that was in favour of us joining a Common Market for trade. This has expanded, and whilst nobody under the age of 50 has been able to vote on whether they want to remain in the EU, everybody has had no say in the treaties that have been signed that grants the EU law making power over this country.

[RingMaster2001]

On a personal anecdote; I had 2 positions come up within my company I needed to fill. 208 people applied. It isn't a particularly well paid job, and isn't really a great job I must admit. It is a statement on how many people are desperate for work at the moment. Banks, car plants, Woolworths, and soon British Airways (which has asked 30,000 of it's staff to work for nothing in order to save the company) have made hundreds of thousands of people out of work. We don't need immigrants for the economy. We need to get people who have been put out of work from this economic crisis back into work; which sadly we are not making happen.

[jitz]

I didn't know the EU entitled people to jump country whenever the fuck they pleased. I thought it was purely a trade agreement that allowed for the singular economy in the region. A very poor economy since it's inception, but an economy none the less.

You guys have a history of agreements like this though. The Commonwealth allowed a lot of people to change countries quickly and easily. Hell, for a long time there you could get a dual British/Australian passport apparently, although you guys tightened a lot of that up. Too many British citizens left your country in the past 100 years aswell. Now every child of that citizen can walk into your country with the only question asked being "Who is your parent?". I'm one of them. I don't know the figures on the amount of British citizens living outside of the country, but I'd say it would be a pretty high precentage compared to other countries. Just keep in mind nearly all countries have that law, you pay a high price for it though because you have too many people leave. Which gets into a whole bunch of other crazy numbers and shit on happiness in nation and how that's measured. Social, weather, amenities, climate, flora and fauna - it's insane, but numbers that are important to every country.

You can't say that immigrants have fucked you guys up though because of the world wide economic downturn. These immigrants were being let in for years and years before it happened. Unemployment is an unfortunate thing, but a fact of life. Your government can't be blamed for not have the foresight that the economy would crash and thousands upon thousands of people would lose their jobs, leading to hyteria against immigrants as everyone scrambles to get the few jobs that are on offer. No one saw the economic crisis coming, and many a documentary and conspiracy theory 'documentary' has already been made and will be made in years to come on exactly how it happened. It is only a short term problem though. Many countries are already seeing improvements, Australia dodged the term 'recession' by posting overall growth in the last quarter for example. It's unfortunate you have people losing their jobs, while you have immigrants looking for jobs. It's an unforeseen issue though, and it's only a short term one.

So once the dust has settled, and the economic crisis is laid to rest in the next 6 months or so. What will the excuse be then? There will still be unemployment, there simply isn't enough jobs in the world for everyone to have one, and some people simply don't want to work or can't. You will always be competing with others for jobs.

It's clearly all based around the EU agreement which would probably take a lecturer a year to fully explain the how's and why's of it. To say that the agreement allows everyone in the EU to come to the UK, and they do, is probably true. Why is that though? They surely saw that it would bring an influx of immigrants with it, did they predict that in the long term it would level out? What are the economic benefits in the long term (you have to look past the current situation, they didn't know it was going to happen when the EU agreement was made)?

[RingMaster2001]

The Commonwealth agreements still allow people from Australia, Canada etc. to come here, and what's more, every member of a Commonwealth country is allowed to vote in elections here. I don't mind that, not at all.

Immigrants have been coming here for years, and it's been widely tolerated for years; but it takes an economic crisis for it to become apparent that we should have stopped it years ago.

There are over 60 million people in this country. That's more than Australia, Canada and New Zealand combined. Yet we don't have an immigration policy.

The UK fits into the United States 40 times. If the density of people in this country was in the United States, the population of the United States would be 2.4 Billion. More people than in China and India combined. That density is ridiculous. And that isn't including the amount of illegal immigrants that the government just don't know about.

Why is that though? They surely saw that it would bring an influx of immigrants with it, did they predict that in the long term it would level out? What are the economic benefits in the long term (you have to look past the current situation, they didn't know it was going to happen when the EU agreement was made)?

Our presence in the EU started as merely a trade relationship. It has been Tony Blair and Gordon Brown who have signed a variety of treaties that has handed power to Europe. What started as a trade relationship evolved into much more, and without the mandate of the people. Tony Blair was elected on the basis that in his manifesto we would have a referendum on the treaty of Lisbon. We didn't get one.

The plus side is that our entry in the early 70s contained a veto on Europe and an "opt out" clause, meaning we can leave the EU if we see it fit. We have gone against Europe several times, and the only reason they haven't voted us out of it is because they need us. Margaret Thatcher fought our corner in the 80s and prevented us from subsidising other European countries, but all that changed under Blair, as we lost the rebate and now we are responsible for around 25% of the EU's funding. We are by far more financially viable (I would say richer, but NOONE is rich at the moment) than any other country in the EU. Germany have a god awful economy at the moment and simply couldn't afford it if we pulled out, and then who does that leave? France?

Until the present government are out (which is DEFINITELY going to happen; in recent polls the Labour Party are third behind a party that was set up only ten years ago, which, by chance is based around us leaving the EU), we won't have a referendum on Europe. But we will. Gordon Brown is dragging his heels calling an election (he has to call one within one year from now constitutionally, although common practice has been every 4 years) because he knows that we will be out of it before he has finishined packing at No10.

[Fozy]

The fuck are you guys rabbling about.

[jitz]

Commonwealth agreements don't allow someone to come to your country and work; not at all. They will let you stay for a short term visit without a visa. It's a common thing these days though, those treaties have been established between a lot of countries, especially between English speaking countries. I walked into the USA without a visa. Australia won't let any foreigner into the country without a visa, but if you're from a country we have those treaties with, then it's sorted out by your travel agent. We stop criminals from visiting, you don't. It still has no effect on your eomplyment situation as to get a work visa for the UK you have to meet a criteria like Australia's.

I also understand you're feeling a little over crowded, especially in London where too many people are trying to live in the one small place. You have food and water to support them though. Australia and New Zealand aren't good examples to bring up when it comes to land mass and population. Australia is massive but can't support a large population, we struggle in many regions with water supply as it is. It simply doesn't rain enough to let everyone live here, we'd all die of thirst. New Zealand, well no one wants to live with those wankers.

You can support a large density population because you get shitloads of water across the entire island, and the land is very livable. In China you have large mountains making living very difficult. In India you have extreme heat. In China, where a large density population can be supported, you have Hong Kong. Which Wikipedia tells me has a population density about 1,500 more people per quare kilometer more than London. I'm just saying that just because you're a small island doesn't mean you have an unsustainable population density, it may make living awkward and sometimes frustrating,but it doesn't negatively impact on things like employment. With more people, comes more job opportunities.

Once again, I really don't know the EU stuff and the history behind it, and that seems to be where most of this immigration anger is being pointed at. It also seems like most of it is just a victim of a worldwide issue in the economic crisis. Fact is you're not going to kick millions of immigrants people out of the country in the next 5 years, it will not happen. So when the world's economy is fine and dandy, and you guys relax your immigration laws because this new government that was so opposed to them 5 years before needs them to sustain a country, will you accept them quietly again like you did for years before the crisis? Or will you riot like you're borderline doing now? It just seems like by the time you can implement a solution, the problem won't even be there anymore. It's just short term and you're all overreacting at the situation. Unemployment isn't nice, but it's not an issue confined to the UK right now. Lashing out at immigrants isn't your answer.

[RingMaster2001]

Chris, you've not listened to me again. I didn't say anything that you've mentioned there about the Commonwealth.

You mentioned Hong Kong, but what country was it that built Hong Kong? It's only been Chinese for 12 years.

When this...

With more people, comes more job opportunities.

...actually becomes the case, I'll agree with you, but it isn't/has never been the case here. It just sounds like something nice you'll hear from a fortune cookie.

So when the world's economy is fine and dandy, and you guys relax your immigration laws because this new government that was so opposed to them 5 years before needs them to sustain a country, will you accept them quietly again like you did for years before the crisis? Or will you riot like you're borderline doing now?

I don't understand how with 60 million people in the country (expected to reach 70 million by 2020) that we need immigrants to sustain us? That just doesn't make sense. Positive discrimination also doesn't make sense, especially not at the moment.

Immigrants are not making us sustainable at the moment; and just like Australia is significantly reducing the number of immigrants it takes in because of the economic crisis, we need to do the same.